Legislature(2003 - 2004)
04/22/2003 08:06 AM House STA
| Audio | Topic |
|---|
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HB 243 - EVALUATION OF AGENCY PROGRAMS Number 0045 CHAIR WEYHRAUCH announced that the first order of business was HOUSE BILL NO. 243, "An Act establishing state agency program performance management and audit powers in the Office of the Governor for the evaluation of agency programs; and providing for an effective date." Number 0097 PAT DAVIDSON, Legislative Auditor, Division of Legislative Audit, Alaska State Legislature, told the committee that she was available to answer questions on behalf of the division. REPRESENTATIVE SEATON asked which bill version was before the committee. CHAIR WEYHRAUCH clarified that [during the April 17, 2003 hearing on HB 243], the proposed committee substitute (CS) [Version 23-GH1138\D, Lauterbach, 4/16/03] had been withdrawn as a work draft and was no longer before the committee. Number 0160 GINNY AUSTERMAN, Staff to Representative Bruce Weyhrauch, House State Affairs Standing Committee, Alaska State Legislature, informed the committee that a new committee substitute had just been delivered to her and would be handed out to the committee shortly. [HB 243 was held until later in the meeting.] HB 243-EVALUATION OF AGENCY PROGRAMS Number 0874 CHAIR WEYHRAUCH returned the committee's attention to HOUSE BILL NO. 243, "An Act establishing state agency program performance management and audit powers in the Office of the Governor for the evaluation of agency programs; and providing for an effective date." CHAIR WEYHRAUCH reminded the committee that at the previous hearing on HB 243 [April 17, 2003] a committee substitute had been adopted and withdrawn, leaving the original bill version before the committee. Furthermore, Representative Berkowitz had offered a conceptual amendment [on page 2, line 4, after the word "confidential", which would add: "only to the extent permitted by other provisions of law". Chair Weyhrauch noted that Mr. Baldwin had been asked to "take that under advisement." Number 0920 JAMES BALDWIN, Assistant Attorney General, Governmental Affairs Section, Civil Division (Juneau), Department of Law, presented a proposed committee substitute (CS), Version 23-GH1138\H, to the committee. He reported the following: We did prepare an amendment for the bill and sent it to your committee ... staff, which we believe marries what we intend, along with - we hope - ... some of the concerns that were specified by Representative Berkowitz, which would propose to have the language read in a way that, while preserving the confidentiality of audit papers, ... would not allow us to elevate anything, that was heretofore considered open to the public, to be confidential merely by conducting an audit or bringing them into the possession of an auditor. CHAIR WEYHRAUCH told the committee members that a proposed committee substitute (CS), Version 23-GH1138\H, was in their packets. In response to a question by Representative Seaton, he clarified that it was Version D that was rescinded as the working document at the [April 17, 2003] meeting. He noted that a sentence was added to Section 3 of Version H [page 2, beginning line 5], which read as follows: However, a record containing information, data, estimates, and statistics obtained during the course of an audit conducted under AS 44.19.145(a) may be kept confidential only to the extent required by law applicable to the agency from which the record is obtained. MR. BALDWIN, in response to a question by Chair Weyhrauch, confirmed that that sentence was added per the advice of an auditor. He said he had told the auditor that he had no objection to the addition. Number 1177 REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ asked if there are definitions in statute for some of the terms used [in Version H] such as: "record", "information", and "audit work papers". MR. BALDWIN said that he doesn't think that the words "work papers" are defined; however, he noted that those words are already in use by the legislative auditors. REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ asked if a record would be distinct from [a] work paper or other related supportive material. MR. BALDWIN responded that he doesn't believe so. He said that the term "public record" is defined in Title 40. He added, "The term 'record' ... just basically is a document." REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ clarified the reason for his line of questioning as follows: This confidentiality provision ... turns on the intersection between the terms 'record' and 'audit work papers and other' ... 'related supportive material', and if those terms are not synonymous, it seems like an invitation for trouble. MR. BALDWIN responded, "I can tell you that our intent here is to make it clear that there would be no ability under these amendments to elevate a document, heretofore considered open and available to the public, to a confidential status merely because it's in the possession of an auditor." He explained that what [the last sentence in Section 3 of Version H] is meant to say is that "if it's open to the public when it's in the possession of another agency, when it becomes in the possession of an auditor, it would likewise be open to the public." He added that that is the intent of the language. Number 1304 REPRESENTATIVE SEATON moved to adopt the proposed committee substitute (CS), Version 23-GH1138\H, as a work draft. CHAIR WEYHRAUCH indicated that, without objection, [Version H was before the committee]. REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ said that his concern remains that in "some other person's estimation," internal audit work papers may not rise to the level of records He opined that the language in the amended sentence ought to track the language that it's modifying. REPRESENTATIVE SEATON asked Representative Berkowitz if he was asking for the substitution of the word "record" with either "file" or "document". REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ said that the "cleanest" would be to substitute "a record" for "internal audit work papers and other related supported material". He admitted that it is cumbersome; however, he said that the repetition of the language would make interpretation of the statute easier. Number 1465 CHAIR WEYHRAUCH clarified that with Representative Berkowitz's suggested amendment to Version H, [page 2, beginning on line 5] would read as follows: However, internal audit work papers and other related supportive material containing information, data, estimates, and statistics obtained during the course of an audit conducted under AS 44.19.145(a) may be kept confidential only to the extent required by law applicable to the agency from which the record is obtained. MR. BALDWIN said he understood the amendment. He said he had considered using the term "public record", which is defined in Title 40. He added that it would include "almost any scrap of paper that an agency had that generally is available to the public." He stated that he doesn't really have a problem with Representative Berkowitz's amendment. He said that he thinks it has the intent that he is trying to achieve. He explained that the reason he had chosen the word "record" was because he wanted to refer to any document. He note that "record" is the term of art that's used, basically, in the public records log, although the correct defined term is "public record". He said he is sure that the language that was proposed could be improved upon. Number 1651 PAT DAVIDSON, Legislative Auditor, Division of Legislative Audit, Alaska State Legislature, regarding Version H, said that in terms of assisting the Division of Legislative Audit in any way, [Version H, with or without the amendment] would be just fine. In response to Chair Weyhrauch's further clarification of the amendment, she said that would expand [the language]. She said, "Typically, in working papers, what you're going to see ... depends upon how you define "information"; you're going to see narratives - the write-up of discussions you've had with agency personnel." CHAIR WEYHRAUCH stated that he has a concern with the amendment because he understands that internal audit work papers are generally not disclosed to the public. He asked Ms. Davidson if that is true. MS. DAVIDSON said that it depends on what the state decides. She stated, "What you need to do is make sure that confidential information that is made confidential any place else in statute remains confidential, even if it becomes part of internal work papers." In response to a follow-up question by Chair Weyhrauch, she confirmed that internal audit work papers may or may not be confidential. CHAIR WEYHRAUCH commented that the amendment would allow some protection to both the public and to the auditors. He emphasized the tension between wanting to keep records open to the public, yet wanting auditors to do their job and take sensitive analysis of issues. MS. DAVIDSON acknowledged that. She continued as follows: From an auditor's perspective, one of the things that benefits [the Division of] Legislative Audit in the fact that our working papers are confidential, is that ... it eases agencies' concern when they give us access to confidential information. It also may enhance communication - [the] interview process - when these people know that they're supervisor can't come and say, "Well, what did you tell the auditors?" So, those are just the tradeoffs that you have to make when preparing the statutes, and [determining] ... what you want to deem as confidential. Number 1838 REPRESENTATIVE SEATON said it seems that what is being made confidential is no more confidential than what is required under existing law, and repeating the same language [as the amendment to Version H would do], would make that very clear. He indicated that if the term "a record" is used, then "we're not quite sure where we're going." He asked Ms. Davidson if she sees any problem doing that. MS. DAVIDSON said she doesn't "see any particular difference there - one [way] or the other." REPRESENTATIVE DAHLSTROM, in response to Chair Weyhrauch, stated that she has no objection to the amendment. Number 1925 CHAIR WEYHRAUCH announced that, there being no objection to the suggested "conceptual" amendment to Version H, [it was adopted]. Number 1943 REPRESENTATIVE DAHLSTROM moved to report CSHB 243, Version 23- GH1138\H, as amended, out of committee with individual recommendations and the accompanying fiscal note. There being no objection, CSHB 243(STA) was reported out of the House State Affairs Standing Committee. REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ stated that he finds it problematic that "funding for the position comes from raiding the Division of Elections and the Human Rights Commission." He said that he hopes that issue will be addressed in the House Finance Committee.
| Document Name | Date/Time | Subjects |
|---|